[Kde-accessibility] System Bell

[Frederik Gladhorn]

Hi all,

I'd like to remove the "System Bell" section from the accessibility system
settings. Is anyone using the settings to have a visual bell replace the
system one? I cannot recall having heard the system bell and think that in the
year 2015 maybe it's time to move on ;)

Please speak up if you think there's value in this specific kcm module.

Cheers,
Frederik

[Kyle]

Being primarily a GNOME/MATE screen reader user, I may be way off base here, but
there are some cases where I still hear a system bell, which is generally
replaced by a sound when using Pulseaudio. Some of these cases include
backspacing on an empty line in a text box or arrowing down past the end of
shell history in a terminal. Alerts of this kind seem important to me, in order
to give me an idea of where I am at times. I can see where a visual system bell
replacement would be important to deaf users in the same way, although they are
probably better able to see cursors and such. Still, there are some bell alerts
that may not be immediately apparent without some sort of visual feedback. Hope
this helps.

[Peter Grasch]

Hey,

Being primarily a GNOME/MATE screen reader user, I may be way off base here, but there are some cases where I still hear a system bell, which is generally replaced by a sound when using Pulseaudio.

The very fact that the actual system bell is “generally replaced” means we’re talking about something better suited for a “normal” notification.
The examples you mentioned are good indicators: There is no upside (that I can see) for these being system bell events instead of notifications. However, there is the big downside of having to maintain a completely different means of notification delivery.

I can see where a visual system bell replacement would be important to deaf users in the same way, although they are probably better able to see cursors and such. Still, there are some bell alerts that may not be immediately apparent without some sort of visual feedback.

If the events that are now system bell events would become notifications, then they can easily have visual component as well. Actually the very fact of moving them to the notification system means that they can then be configured through the usual notification settings.

All in all: Big +1 on Frederik’s proposal.

Best regards,
Peter

[Jeremy Whiting]

Frederik,

I agree that it's probably not used anymore. However I don't think the
subscribers to the kde-accessibility list are very many. Maybe send the
same mail to kde-***@kde.org or something to get a wider audience? I like
the idea of making these things use real notifications as Peter suggested
though also.

BR,
Jeremy

Hey,

Post by Kyle
Being primarily a GNOME/MATE screen reader user, I may be way off base

here, but there are some cases where I still hear a system bell, which is
generally replaced by a sound when using Pulseaudio.
The very fact that the actual system bell is “generally replaced” means
we’re talking about something better suited for a “normal” notification.
The examples you mentioned are good indicators: There is no upside (that I
can see) for these being system bell events instead of notifications.
However, there is the big downside of having to maintain a completely
different means of notification delivery.

Post by Kyle
I can see where a visual system bell replacement would be important to

deaf users in the same way, although they are probably better able to see
cursors and such. Still, there are some bell alerts that may not be
immediately apparent without some sort of visual feedback.
If the events that are now system bell events would become notifications,
then they can easily have visual component as well. Actually the very fact
of moving them to the notification system means that they can then be
configured through the usual notification settings.
All in all: Big +1 on Frederik’s proposal.
Best regards,
Peter
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[Heiko Tietze]

The survey about system settings did reveal some confusion about the system bell (i.e. there was no clear association with other settings). Most users do not even know what the system bell can be used for (and even experts doubt to have the hardware). But there are still people who want it for low latency audio feedback [1] and notification on the console [2].
Nevertheless I agree with removing this feature or rather harmonizing with default notification. As a notification feature you could bind the system bell to some special activities, like console tasks. And disabled people adjust notifications instead of accessibility, or both.

[1] http://user-prompt.com/de/results-of-card-sorting-the-kde-system-settings/#comments
[2] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177861

[Peter Grasch]

Hello,

Post by Heiko Tietze
The survey about system settings did reveal some confusion about the system bell (i.e. there was no clear association with other settings). Most users do not even know what the system bell can be used for (and even experts doubt to have the hardware). But there are still people who want it for low latency audio feedback [1] and notification on the console [2].

I’m sure there are some users. But correct me if I’m wrong - none of the ones you pointed to have a real need for the KCM as it is now. (we already have low latency visual feedback regardless of a visual bell)

Post by Heiko Tietze
Nevertheless I agree with removing this feature or rather harmonizing with default notification. As a notification feature you could bind the system bell to some special activities, like console tasks. And disabled people adjust notifications instead of accessibility, or both.

A “beep” backend for KNotify would be nice and probably reasonably easy to implement.
I think this should become a wish list item. Nevertheless, this imho shouldn’t block the removal of the KCM.

Best regards,
Peter

[Olaf Schmidt-Wischhöfer]

Hi Peter,

how do you suggest to deal with non-KDE, console applications in this context?

Allowing people to see a “beep” printed by a console application seems to be a
useful feature to me – for people who cannot hear, but also for broken audio
hardware or intentionally silent (e.g. library) configurations.

I am not against moving the feature to a place where it suits better, but I
suggest to be a bit cautious about completely removing an accessibility
feature until we are sure that we have truly reached out to the people relying
on it.

Best regards, Olaf

Post by Peter Grasch
Hello,

wrote: The survey about system settings did reveal some confusion about
the system bell (i.e. there was no clear association with other
settings). Most users do not even know what the system bell can be used
for (and even experts doubt to have the hardware). But there are still
people who want it for low latency audio feedback [1] and notification on
the console [2].

I’m sure there are some users. But correct me if I’m wrong - none of the
ones you pointed to have a real need for the KCM as it is now. (we already
have low latency visual feedback regardless of a visual bell)

Nevertheless I agree with removing this feature or rather harmonizing with
default notification. As a notification feature you could bind the system
bell to some special activities, like console tasks. And disabled people
adjust notifications instead of accessibility, or both.

A “beep” backend for KNotify would be nice and probably reasonably easy to
implement. I think this should become a wish list item. Nevertheless, this
imho shouldn’t block the removal of the KCM.
Best regards,
Peter

[Peter Grasch]

Hi Olaf,

Post by Olaf Schmidt-Wischhöfer
how do you suggest to deal with non-KDE, console applications in this context?

I would suggest turning the console beep in a regular KNotify notification
with a generic text like "Beep" or "Alert". That way it can be configured like
any other notification in the accurately named "Manage Notifications" KCM
right next to where the System Bell KCM used to be.

Post by Olaf Schmidt-Wischhöfer
Allowing people to see a “beep” printed by a console application seems to be
a useful feature to me – for people who cannot hear, but also for broken
audio hardware or intentionally silent (e.g. library) configurations.

I think that a regular, visual KNotify notification will work just as well
here.

Post by Olaf Schmidt-Wischhöfer
I am not against moving the feature to a place where it suits better, but I
suggest to be a bit cautious about completely removing an accessibility
feature until we are sure that we have truly reached out to the people
relying on it.

If we think that the actual "system bell" notifications are superior to the
KNotify ones (because of low latency audio or the localized flashing in the
visual mode), then I would argue that we should bring those features to the
KNotify subsystem and not keep them reserved for a special few events.

Best regards,
Peter